you go back to bill clinton's tax rates which we did pretty well under bill clinton, you cut some defense spending, which isn't going to get cut otherwise because the defense contractors are in practically every congressional district in the place. and you do make some human services cuts which i don't like but everybody's going to have to put something on the table here. >> steve rattner, i'm sure you would beg to differ with what howard dean had to say as far as the fiscal cliff goes. he says it's not a fiscal cliff, it's more like a fiscal slope. there are some people that occupy the left side of the american political spectrum that would agree with howard dean saying listen, it's really not that big of a deal as deficit hawks are making it out to be. you would disagree, i would guess. >> well, i think howard is disagreeing a little bit, too. i think howard is saying it's time for meaningful deficit reduction. howard's become a deficit hawk. i think howard and i would disagree probably on some of the elements of what constitutes -- >> no, but he's saying it's not a disaster if it happe